Inclusive Meetings as a Catalyst for Culture Change [PODCAST]

Phil:
The four levels of psychological safety are inclusion safety, people feel safe to be themselves. Learner safety, people feel safe to make mistakes, ask questions, and engage in learning and development. Contributor safety, people feel safe to share ideas and thoughts. And challenger safety, people feel safe to challenge authority and question systems, processes, etc.

Thinking about what can be done, psychological safety isn’t built by one off grand gestures. It’s also not rocket science. It’s a lot of small things done consistently and deliberately over time.

Welcome to the Inclusion at Work podcast. We at Leaders for Good spend a lot of time thinking about how to most effectively create culture change for more inclusive and effective organisations. And when we’re looking at culture change, there are so many different places that we can focus.

But today, we wanted to talk to you about one area that organisations can leverage to quickly and easily make positive, tangible change at scale.

And that’s focusing on our meetings.

Kerry:
So let’s start with why we think meetings can be a really interesting area for Culture change. And there’s a number of reasons here. Now, firstly, one of the main points at which we interact with multiple other people in an organisation are meetings. So what that means is every meeting is a chance for us to build connections and to either include or exclude.

So there’s really important interaction points, but also we know meetings are really high frequency. So the statistic that comes from Atlassian is there are 62, meetings per month per person at Atlassian. So if we’ve got this really high frequency, that means there’s a lot of chance for us to be able to make change.

Another factor is the fact that we know a lot of people believe that meetings are a waste of time. So 50 percent of people think that meetings are a waste of time. So if we can look at how we can make our meetings more effective as well as more inclusive, then we’ve got a really big potential to make change and to get people on board with wanting to make change as well, which we know is really important.

So I guess the sort of overarching reason why meetings are a perfect opportunity for change. And today we’re talking about how we make them more inclusive is the fact that meetings really just a microcosm of our broader organisational culture. So there’s a great quote that we like, which is show me your meetings and I’ll show you your culture.

So that microcosm of culture, if we can get meetings better, if we can make them more inclusive, make them more effective, and then that’s going to scale throughout the organisation.

Phil:
I think that scale points really important there. Very often the meetings we have are meetings that have never happened before.

You know, they are a mix of human beings that maybe have never come together to interact. So it’s all very well to have team meetings where you’re meeting maybe with the same handful of people day after day or week after week. You fall into a very natural rhythm, but we can forget to, maybe do some of the basics which can really drive inclusion, sharing, creativity, high performance, all the things we’ll talk about later, and put those into, into place as a, kind of system or a practice when we are meeting with new people.

So, I think that’s part of the, the scale, piece of this, particularly. And I think just pointing out some of the myths of inclusive meetings.

Now, sometimes when we say those words, when we’re doing workshops and training on this, we had a bit of an eye roll from from some people because I think there’s a misconception about what an inclusive meeting is. And to help us understand what we’re talking about. It’s often helpful to point out what something isn’t so we’re gonna look at some of the myths of inclusive meetings.

So what they’re not are endless meetings where everybody attends, everybody speaks. And it is just a, you know, an environment where nothing actually gets done. Nothing actually gets actioned.

What we’re really looking for are fewer, more valuable meetings with the right people in attendance and the people in attendance have an opportunity to add value. to share their perspectives and share their ideas. So when we say inclusive meetings, that’s the goal, not these endless town hall style environments.

Kerry:
And I think that’s really important because when we talk to leaders, obviously, the last thing that leaders want is things that are going to take more time. We know how busy everyone is already. And the point Which when we’re working with leaders, we say, actually, this isn’t just going to make your meetings more inclusive and people feel better and feel heard.

It’s actually going to make your meetings more effective. You’re going to get better outcomes. That’s the point in which we see the light bulb switch on and people lean in. So I think it’s the point here really is if we can get less meetings, but those meetings actually add value and then we have the right people in them.

So the people in them can add value. Then of course we want to hear what everyone’s got to say. And that’s where the real power comes from. So we kind of talked about what a meeting isn’t, but what does it look like if we have a meeting that is truly inclusive? What does that look like? So there’s a few things we think about here, and this actually links back to our broader model around what makes inclusive organisations, which will link in the show notes.

But this is from a meetings perspective. So first off, we really need diversity. So if we don’t have the right people in the room, the right perspectives in the room, then we’re not going to get the best ideas and we’re not going to be able to make the best decisions. So that’s kind of a prerequisite. We need the diversity in the room.

Then we need to have a really clear purpose for that meeting. So what is it that we’re trying to achieve? And that looks like, I guess, an agenda at its most basic, but unless we know what that purpose is, what we’re all coming together to do, then it’s really hard to determine. Even who should be in attendance.

Then we want to create the opportunity for everyone to participate. So that’s regardless of needs or communication styles. How do we make sure that everyone has the chance? So that might be simple things like sharing materials beforehand or providing other ways to contribute if people can’t attend.

Then we need everyone to have a voice. So Feeling like they have space and time to contribute and to be part of sharing their ideas and perspectives. We want people to be valued. So to actively acknowledge those different opinions and then connection. So we are humans interacting with others. So how do we create space for relationship building and actively build that into our meeting structures and then finally decision making.

So making sure we understand what type of decisions we are looking to make in that meeting and. Who should be involved and in what way? So a few things there. But that’s the aim is if we can get diversity, clear purpose, an opportunity for people to contribute. Everyone’s voice is being heard and valued.

Create that connection and be really clear on decision making. That’s that’s really powerful in a meeting.

Phil:
Before we dive into some of the things we work with leaders on regarding how to make their meetings more inclusive and effective, some of the specifics behind the things that Kerry just shared, we wanted to touch on another important concept, which is creating the broader conditions in which more inclusive and effective meetings are likely to take place.

Broadly speaking, that means fostering a psychologically safe environment. Now, psychological safety is one of the concepts that we often hear in organisational life, but sometimes it’s just kind of said in passing and we don’t often really dig in and understand what it is, what it means, and what we can do to help increase it or foster it.

So, for example, some of the things we see when people are experiencing psychological safety are they are more likely to share information about themselves, about their, about their personal life, about their background, about their perspectives, they’re more likely to share when they make mistakes, they’re more likely to engage in giving and receiving feedback effectively, they’re more likely to share their thoughts and ideas.

And importantly, they’re more likely to challenge the status quo as well. So all really desirable behaviors we see when we have psychological safety. And of course these happen in and outside of meetings. Now, conversely, when those things aren’t present, we’re not likely to get those inside of our meetings.

We’re not likely to get people sharing ideas, et cetera. And that’s kind of counter to what we’re trying to achieve with inclusive and effective meetings.

When we’re working again with leaders to help them identify opportunities to improve, and we all have opportunities to improve, right? There are all things we can do as leaders to improve psychological safety.

We find breaking the concept down into different levels really useful. Now, the four levels of psychological safety were identified by Timothy Clark in his research on the topic, and he’s written a wonderful book on the topic, which will link to in the short show notes. But when we’re looking at psychological safety, chunking it, is really, really useful because it helps us get really specific about things we can do. So, very briefly, the four levels of psychological safety are inclusion safety, people feel safe to be themselves, learner safety, people feel safe to make mistakes, ask questions and engage in learning and development, contributor safety, people feel safe to share ideas and thoughts, and challenger safety, people feel safe to challenge authority and question systems, processes, etc.

Again, the when we’re thinking about what can be done, psychological safety and trust as a synonym for psychological safety isn’t built by one off grand gestures, and it’s also not rocket science. It’s a lot of small things done consistently and deliberately over time. So, for example, some of those things are.

Making sure we’re sharing our fears and concerns as leaders making sure we’re adapting our style, making sure that we’re providing people adequate support when they’re taking on, growth and, you know, challenging opportunities. Making sure that we’re speaking last as leaders if we’re doing an ideation session.

So loads of good research around that one that where if we share our ideas first as a leader, it often leads to reduced quantity of ideas, but also all the ideas tend to coalesce around the idea that we that we shared and also making it known and making it explicit that we do want challenge that we do want people to question how we’re doing things and why we’re doing things.

So there’s a lot that could be done there and unpacking and getting specific about, okay, me as a leader specifically, what can I do with my team? What can I do with my extended team is so, so important and so, so individual from leader to leader as well.

Kerry:
And I think what’s really interesting when we look at those levels of psychological safety in organisations, of course, it’s going to vary by team, by function, et cetera.

But It’s thinking about where we are now and where we want to be as an organisation. So we believe that challenger safety and getting to that highest level was really important because it’s only when people are willing to question how things are going to already being done that you can make them even better.

But obviously in some cultures that can be really hard. So we’ve got some really hierarchical cultures with some organisations that we work with, both because of nature of the organisation, but also when we look at things like culturally based on where those organisations are located. When you’ve got that hierarchy, getting to challenger safety can be can be really challenging.

But what we see working with leaders is it makes a really big difference. Yes, to the output from an organisation perspective, because things are constantly being improved and done better. And we’re not just stuck in doing things the same way, but also in terms of how people feel, because when you can question, then you’re really feeling valued and you’re able to truly share your thoughts and feelings. So I think it can be really powerful.

Phil, you have some nice stories around challenger safety in terms of pilots and surgeons.

Phil:
They’re certainly poignant stories, I think, but yeah, some really high profile cases where challenger safety certainly hasn’t been present and it’s led to catastrophic results.

So planes have gone down, quite high profile air crashes because Other people in the, you know, in the air and in the cabin crew have noticed that something’s wrong and have kind of tried to raise it. But ultimately haven’t done that strongly enough because there is a culture there that you don’t question the pilot and people, you know, planes have gone down because of it.

The other example is in hospitals, the historically and I’m assuming currently in some situations, there is a rather unhealthy culture that again, we don’t challenge the surgeon in operating rooms. So junior doctors, nurses, for example, would not point out something that they knew was wrong in a surgery, resulting in again, unfortunate consequences because of lack of psychological safety, lack of challenger safety.

So if it’s not happening in those environments where it’s quite literally life or death, how likely is it in the, in the environments most of us operate in, in our organisations where it’s, you know, it’s not that dire a consequence for on a day to day basis. So really considering how we can foster that challenge of safety again, the opportunity is there, but it’s easier said than done.

Kerry:
And I think this probably leads us back to meetings because all of those levels of psychological safety and all of those suggestions that Phil had in terms of some sort of tactical things you can do, all of those can occur within meetings. So let’s just use challenger as an example. So if we’re, we’ve got an idea or we’ve got a project plan that we’re working on that we’re sharing back to our team, starting that meeting with, look, I’m sharing something with you today, but really this is about, I want you to challenge me.

I want us to think about what we can do differently. And then when people do, challenge or raise other alternative ways of doing things. Then we thank them and we reward them and we highlight that that’s exactly what we want to see. So all of those levels of safety can apply within meetings.

Phil:
And just one slight challenge to the language you use there as well, Kerry, and this is like the common slip ups. I guess when we’re using language like that, I’d even say not challenge me, but challenge the idea it. Because again, there’s a, there’s a subtle difference in saying, I’d like you to challenge me versus I’d like you to challenge the, the concept or the plan for example.

So again you know we’ve all made, myself , definitely included, and sometimes on a weekly basis, but it’s can be the difference that makes a difference.

Kerry:
So that element obviously applies to meetings, but what else can we do to be more inclusive and more effective in our meetings and ideally getting these little microcosms of our culture working as well as possible with the aim that we then can scale that more broadly across the organisation?

And I guess one of the first things is about being deliberate. So Phil said this with the psychological safety, but it’s the same with meetings. What we’re going to talk about now isn’t rocket science, but they are the things that fall off. And it’s, they are the things that if we do consistently make a really, really big difference.

So when we’re working with leaders on this, the first thing we do is self assessments. It’s like, which parts of those inclusive meeting traits that I shared earlier, which parts are you doing and which parts have you got room to grow? And we see that everyone has different areas of focus, but most people have at least one thing that they do need to focus on.

So if we link back to those areas that I shared earlier, there’s some very specific things that we can do. So diversity, that’s about being really active in terms of how we think about who should be present in our meetings. So it’s really easy just to invite everybody. That doesn’t make sense. We don’t need everybody for every single meeting.

So how do we determine what the purpose of the meeting is and therefore who we need? And especially if we’re looking for ideas or if we’re looking to make decisions, then making sure we’ve got those different perspectives. And we quite often hear from people in different teams. Well, we’ve only got, we haven’t got very diverse team.

Okay, well, then let’s think about even organisational diversity. Who can we pull in from other teams to help us and get a different perspective, even if they might not be the closest person to that idea?

Phil:
That diversity piece is really, really important. And we talk a lot about this when we do work with leaders and teams on decision making.

And I think the importance of getting that diverse range of backgrounds and perspectives increases in line with how critical and what’s the importance of this decision. So if this is a really high impact, really high importance decision, taking the additional time to go, okay, have we got a range of different backgrounds and perspectives?

Where could we get them? Or have we got people that will challenge us in that room and really being deliberate about that? The importance of that only exponentially increases. For day to day decisions, you know, where we’re going to for the team social for lunchtime tomorrow, maybe we don’t need to take as much time on that.

Kerry:
And there’s endless research that shows the power of cognitive diversity in terms of improving the decisions that we make and the ideas that we come up to. Maybe we also link your favorite Matthew Syed video in the show notes.

Phil:
Yep, sounds good. At Leaders for Good, we have a proven track record of helping clients from a wide range of different industries create lasting culture change.

We achieve this by developing impactful diversity, equity, and inclusion strategies. By delivering highly effective workshops and programs, and by leading change initiatives that truly work at scale. So if you’re enjoying this conversation, and would like to talk to us about accelerating your organisation’s DEI efforts, and please reach out at [email protected].

Kerry:
So then the second part there was about the real clarity of purpose of the meeting. And again, this sounds simple, but having an agenda, having a real clarity around what we’re trying to achieve. And so often sending out calendar invites, we just put the calendar invite, in the diary. The consequence of that is because we haven’t necessarily fully thought through what the meeting is, we tend to just invite, everybody because it’s easier and we won’t feel like inviting everyone makes everyone feel included.

However, if the person that’s setting up the meeting takes just a couple of minutes to think about what the meeting is about and what we’re trying to get out of it and what that agenda might be, have that as part of the calendar invite.

It really helps us clarify who should be there and then also allows people to determine whether they should come along. So I think one of the things we’ve been talking with organisations about is increasingly this culture, especially if we’ve got challenger safety of questioning whether I’m even needed at that meeting.

So rather than just going to everything that’s in our diary, if we can see the agenda, we don’t think we’ve got value to add, then let’s just get the notes afterwards. So starting to think a bit differently about meetings and how we can take responsibility if we’re putting a meeting in the diary for making sure that we’re really clear and then we have the right people in attendance that can add value.

Phil:
And just on that Kerry as well, you said this before, but I just wanted to highlight it again, but an agenda and a purpose and not the same thing. So we can put an agenda in our meeting invite, but also making sure we’re clear on what is the outcome of this meeting? What are we hoping to achieve? What are we expecting to get to at the end?

Because you can have a list of agenda items, but still no actual purpose to the meeting. So making sure we’re covering both of those spaces is really important.

Kerry:
And someone said to me in a workshop the other day that they’d started doing this and they actually realised they didn’t need a lot of meetings because they realised that if it was just a download of information, they could just do that asynchronously through Slack.

They suddenly realised they had meetings in the diary for meetings sake. So this. Point sounds small, and often we forget it because we’re busy. But actually, it can save a lot of time for everybody else in your session. The next one, then, in terms of giving everyone the opportunity to participate is thinking about different ways people might want to contribute.

So that can be based on things like time of day. So, for example, we know that often caregivers are disadvantaged by meetings that held at times that they need to pick up Children from school. So how can we think about timings of meetings and maybe provide an alternative, but also how can we think about how people think and different processing styles?

So that could mean providing meeting materials ahead of time so that people have had and like the reflection questions or the discussion questions so that people can come pre prepared. Or it could look like providing a mechanism after the meeting for any other ideas, to be able to be filtered through or any other thoughts to be able to be considered at a later date.

Phil:
And considering accessibility there as well.

You know, the start in Australia is about 90 percent of disability is non visible. So we wouldn’t know that, you know, the majority of people with the disability. Had a disability. So if somebody has, for example, a visual impairment or they have impaired hearing, for example, if you’re going to show a video as part of your meeting goes part of the, you know, the, the assets that you’re, that you’re sharing, considering, can everyone consume that information in the, in the same way?

So and that comes down to simple things like asking for accessibility requirements when you’re setting up a, when you’re setting up a meeting.

Kerry:
Yeah. And I think that’s really important because quite often when we say accessibility and we use examples like Phil’s just used there around videos or audio, people think they have to do that for every single time they’re sharing a video or every single time they’re providing audio.

But actually what we’re saying is ask the question, ask, is there anything you need to make this meeting work as well as possible for you? And then once we’ve got that answer, then we can see if we need to make adaptions rather than it being something laborious that we have to do at all points in time.

The next area is around how we make sure that everyone has a voice. So. Simple thing here is about we’re trying to get as much participation as possible. So simple questions like who haven’t we heard from allows us to focus on those voices that might be quieter. And then a scary one. But if you are in zoom, you can download an app where you can actually measure speaking time between different participants.

Now we’ve got a couple of orgs that we work with. Where their teams are completely remote, and we’ve worked with them on this. So it actually provides a really good conversation starter. So if you share that, actually, we want to hear from everyone. One way we’re going to understand this is by using this technology, and then it starts a conversation.

It’s like, Okay, so we’ve seen that voices aren’t balanced. What can we do to improve this? So that can be quite…

Phil:
I think it goes back to the original point in terms of having an agenda and allowing people to opt in because or opt out based on, okay, am I actually needed at this meeting? And if you, if you’re, if you’re going to be at a meeting, the presupposition is we want your participation in that meeting.

So making sure, again, whatever format that comes in, whether it’s asynchronously, whether it’s after the meeting, but we do hear from you because. Otherwise, you might not have needed to be there.

Kerry:
So, if we’ve given people a chance to share their perspectives, then the next part of it is how we ensure they feel valued and that we care about those perspectives.

And really, this is kind of simple. It’s active listening. So, being really intentional when someone’s sharing something about listening to what it is they’ve got to say, thanking them, for sharing a perspective. And then especially as a leader, calling out any interruptions that we see. And I think the simplest way of doing this is just directing the conversation back to the original speaker.

So for example, someone speaks over Phil and I just say, actually, Phil hadn’t finished speaking there. I’d really like to hear the rest of his perspective. So we don’t have to like make it a big deal. We’re just subtly directing the conversation back and people will see exactly what you’re doing, and it will reduce the amount of speaking over that.

Phil:
When we’re saying calling out the interruptions, that can sound judgmental a little bit, just in that language. But, but that’s absolutely not the way we intend it. There are lots of different reasons people speak over each other. Sometimes it’s enthusiasm. Sometimes it’s, you know, keenness to share an idea.

And also the fact that active listening is, is actually quite difficult for people. I always like to share a little bit of the, the kind of the neuroscience about around this, because I think it makes it clear why active listening is a challenge, but we process information at about six to 800 words a minute and people speak at about 120 words per minute.

So it’s very natural for the brain to go off and start thinking about other things, what’s on the agenda was for dinner tonight. What am I going to say next? And so if you’ve ever been in a position where you are listening to people intently, so if you’re coaching or you’re just doing lots of one on ones in a day, you’ll find that.

I personally find that quite exhausting because you’re having to use a lot of mental energy to do it. So it’s been kind if people do speak over each other, we’re bringing it back, it might be something that you have to address if it becomes a persistent thing, but most of the time it’s a simple nudge that can just get the meeting back on track.

Kerry:
And in the next area is connection.

So how do we help put a focus on that in our meetings? And again, this is kind of simple. It’s not something that has to be. A long time taker, but quick check ins. How are you? And again, we hear this, especially in zoom meetings, we jump on a call and we go straight to task. So often people tell us when we do focus groups and organisations that their leaders never once asked, how are you?

So it can be things that are really small, or there can be some bigger ways of doing check ins. So we love the question of what’s one thing you don’t know just by looking at me. If it was a broader team meeting, so building some exercises in one of the leaders in a group, I ran recently talked about the fact they’d start, they do monthly team meetings and each month it was a different person in the team had to share their favorite song at the start of the meeting.

So they can be really simple things that just start to build a bit of a bit of care.

Phil:
And importantly there, it sounds. It sounds soft and it can sound frivolous as well if you’re very task focused. But actually, this goes back to high performance very, very directly. A couple of bits here as well. So, when we’re focusing on connections and we’re focusing on sharing, us being vulnerable and authentic with our sharing as leaders sets the tone and sets the example very much so.

So, actually, you know what, I’ve got some stuff going on at home and I’m really not top of my game this week. Gives permission, you know, for people in the team to do themselves, and it also highlights the fact that the level of support we need changes over time. You know, we’re not fixed beings. We all have. We all have family health, whatever stuff going on in our lives.

And the ability or the, the, the environment where somebody on the team can share, actually, you know what, I’m not feeling great this week. And you as a leader can make the call that, okay, what can we do to support you? What can we do to move things around so that you, you have a better week? How likely is it that person’s going to feel valued, going to feel connected, going to more likely stick around and put in the extra effort when they you know, when they can.

So focusing on connection is, so powerful when we when we do it right. But it’s an easy thing to go by the wayside when we’re when we’re busy and we’re very task focused.

Kerry:
And I think this applies to customers as well. So there’s a few organisations, big tech organisations for Apple, I believe, with their customer service teams where the first minute of the call has to be based on.

How are you? What’s going on for you today? And the reason is because they see their customer service scores significantly go through the roof when they take just that small piece of time to get to know the customer. So we’re humans. We need to build that in and it’s very, very easy to forget..

So then the final area around decision making is thinking about being really clear on the type of decisions that we’re making in that meeting.

So there’s a whole spectrum of decisions we make as leaders on a daily basis. And some of those decisions are going to need lots of points of And some of them aren’t. So if it is a social get together and the decision is going to be made by consensus, we’ve got five options for what we’re going to do as a team for our social event for the year.

And it’s going to be voting based, whichever gets the most wins. That’s one type of decision. At the opposite end of the spectrum, there might be a structural team structure decision that you are going to make as a leader. And there isn’t going to be any input from team members on that because you have a whole load of insight that they may not necessarily have.

So being clear on what type of decision is being made. And one of the worst things that people hate, and we hear this again in focus groups, is this sort of pantomime of consultation. So where we pretend to ask for perspectives, but actually the decision is already made, or we’re not going to take them into account. So being clear on that type of decision and then communicating that.

And even if it’s a decision that you’ve made without input from others, we still need to communicate the why. So this is a decision I’ve made and this is why I’ve made it. So being very, very clear on what we want from our decisions and how they’re going to be made.

Phil:
And at a broad level, we see that correlate to inclusion and engagement scores across the organisation. So organisations that typically have low scores on around decision making, transparency, fairness, for example, typically then have lower engagement and inclusion scores across the board. So it correlates really, really highly there because it pulls on some fundamental concepts of things are fair and I know what’s going on, which is obviously important to people.

Kerry:
And I think we’ve shared quite a lot there, but actually when you think about them, they’re all really small tweaks. So this isn’t about spending a load of extra time doing anything. This is about small tweaks that we can make. And as we said, not rocket science, being really deliberate in these small things that will make a meeting a lot more inclusive.

And again, once we start to think about being deliberate in these small things, that flows onto everything else that we’re doing day to day. So what we’ve tried to do with this is think about how we can help make small changes that are going to make a big difference.

Phil:
And two things. Yeah. Two things to build on that is if you can, if you’re a leader listening to this, or if you’re in you know, if you’re in learning and development or culture change or the people in culture team thinking about how we can run these as little experiments.

So you change one thing at a time, you know, just just do us one thing slightly differently and see how that works with see how that works in your meetings. See, see what you notice. The second thing as well is your perspective on what you think might be your strengths and your areas for improvement might not be the same as your team.

So if you can have this discussion, this dialogue with your team, let them share their perspectives on things that they would like to see change. That’s even more powerful. And from an inclusion perspective, we would, we would certainly recommend going down that down that path as well. So lots of lots of things can do, and it’s such a practical tactical area.

I think Kerry, unless there’s anything else you want to say before we round off just to kind of, we’ve been doing a lot of work in this in this space, and this is actually going to be the topic of focus for our International Women’s Day talks for 2025. So if you are interested in making more inclusive and effective meetings, and you want to explore the link between Inclusive and effective meetings and also driving gender equity in your organisation, then give us a give us a shout and would be happy to kind of touch on what we’re planning there.

So you can contact us on the usual email address, which is [email protected]. So, That being said, if you got value from this episode in general, and you’d like to support the podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss out on any episodes. You can tell a colleague or a friend. And of course, if you’d like to give us any feedback or discuss anything, DEI or culture change related, you can give us a shout at [email protected].

Thank you so much for listening.

Kerry:
Thank you.

Phil:
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Inclusion at Work podcast. If you’d like to help others benefit from the conversation you just heard, the most impactful thing you can do is share it with a friend. You can also give us a rating or a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts.

And of course, if you’d like to talk to us about accelerating your organisation’s DEI efforts, Or if you’d like to provide feedback on anything you heard today, you can reach us at [email protected].