Accidental DEI Experts with Jen O’Ryan [PODCAST]

Phil Cross: Welcome to the Leaders for Good Podcast. Today we’re speaking to Dr. Jen O’Ryan. She is an author, consultant, and specialist in inclusion, diversity, and belonging. She has a PhD in human behavior and her background is in tech. Leading organisational change and launching global initiatives. We touch on many things during this episode, sparked from a conversation around Jen’s recent work, Inclusive AF, around accidental DEI experts. So if you are one of those people in your organisation, one of the individuals who’ve found yourself talking about leading the charge on diversity, equity, and inclusion, this one is for you.

And even if you’re not, even if you’re an organisational leader, a people and culture or HR professional, this is a fascinating lesson. We touch on many, many topics, including safe spaces. We touch on inclusive language, and that’s just a, just to name a couple of things, really fun conversation, loved speaking with Jen, and we hope you will enjoy listening as well.

So without further ado, we bring you Jen O’Ryan.

Kerry Boys: I thought we’d start by just asking you how do you come to do the work that you do and, and why are you working in this space?

Jen O’Ryan: Yes, yes. And thank you so much for having me. I’ve been looking forward to this conversation for a while. Yeah, so I fell into it almost accidentally. So as you mentioned, I spent the first 20 years of my career working in tech, primarily around launching new initiatives and customer experiences and policies, things like that.

And I got more into the inclusion, diversity, and belonging as as part of my doctorate org. And I realised that companies were really struggling with this. So organisations of all sizes seem to run into difficulties between they have a really good idea, they wanna do something, they wanna do it well. And getting to that implementation really seems to be tricky.

And how do you launch something that is meaningful and effective and safe for everybody involved? And then how do leaders, how do we talk about that and, and kind of, you know, have some of those conversations that honestly can be emotionally charged sometimes.

Phil Cross: Yeah, pretty complex area. And, and one of the, one of the things we’d love to talk to you today, talk to you about today, Jen, is your work.

So you’ve, when did the work come out? Inclusive AF?

Jen O’Ryan: Yes. It published, September of 2020.

Phil Cross: First of all, congratulations. And a, what a time to, what a time to be releasing a, a work into, into the world as well. Thank you. But the, kind of, one of the, one of the main threads in the work is around accidental DEI experts in, in organisations.

And we obviously see this a lot in the work We. And I’d love to get your, love to get, I I guess first of all, why that as a premise? Why, why was that one of the, why was that kind of drawing you as a topic to, to, to put pen to paper?

Jen O’Ryan: It was, it, it’s something that I’ve encountered so accidental experts is, is it’s a, comes from a very loving place.

It’s a very positive term. And it’s one that is used frequently in, in the tech industry because there will be a situation or something that we’ll have to go quickly learn about, and suddenly the person who knows a little bit more than everybody else is the expert and becomes the go-to person for all of the things.

Even if they’re just looking it up on the internet and kind of putting bits of information together, they become the expert. And I found in organisational change and in. DEI, a lot of people come into it accidentally, either because they’re really good at getting things done, so they are tasked with championing DEI in the organisation, or they just have a calling.

They have a passion. They have, they wanna make their corner of the world a little bit better. And, and so they fall into it almost accidentally, and then pretty soon it’s, it just becomes more and more of, of their work and daily focus.

Phil Cross: I love that framing, and I’d not considered it in from that, from that angle before.

It’s, you know, it doesn’t mean you are the, you know, the expert as in a world class expert. You’re just the person who knows most in the room about the, about the thing. Yes. And then, Yeah. In, in the same way that I’m the, I’m the accidental tech expert in, in our business, I’m by no means an expert. I just , I just happen to spend money on gadgets and therefore I’m the, I’m the go-to resource on that.

Jen O’Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. And probably, you know, which questions to ask, right? And how to start problem solving and teasing. So you, as a accidental tech expert, see problems and the world in a very different. Because you become that expert. And that’s exactly how it, how it translates.

Phil Cross: And who are some of those accidental experts?

You, I, you mentioned a couple of them there, but you know, what, what are the, what are the kind of, you know, what are the roles that tend to tend to be stepping into as a, you know, as accidental experts?

Jen O’Ryan: That’s such a good question.

So typically it tends to be people who are more centered around either naturally or because of their work.

Project managers, program managers, people who can take these very ambiguous, ambitious ideas and break them down into their core components and then kind of rally people around, bring them on the journey. I was very excited a few years ago when LinkedIn announced that Chief Diversity Officer was one of the fastest growing C-Suite titles, and I was like that’s fantastic. We need that. But you gimme a couple of really motivated program managers and we will change the world because it is that that level of understanding the mechanics and the interpersonal dynamics of the people with what you’re trying to implement, these changes and, and so that’s, and it typically honestly, but if I’m talking about an organisation like like a company, right, like a corporation, it tends to be people who are either in a human resources recruiting aspect where they engage with people of all levels. Or as people who tend to be in operations because they see everything.

Kerry Boys: Yeah, so you definitely get those almost either self-appointed or organisationally nominated inclusion champions in some form. So sometimes we see that in the form of employee resource groups, employee network groups.

Sometimes there’s a DEI lead in a HR team that might not necessarily have had experience, but they’ve got a very clear calling towards it. And it’s quite often we also see like heads of people and culture end up in that area as well. So they’ve, they’ve almost had to add expertise in DEI to their, to their series of skills that they, that they hold.

And if we’re thinking of those people, then I think you’ve done a really great job of, of describing them from a sort of psychology perspective as well as me being like very typically practical and thinking about, well, what would those roles be? What are the challenges they face? There’s obviously gonna be organisational challenges and personal challenges, so maybe we could discuss those both from those two different angles.

What are the challenges they face in trying to drive change in the organisation? Maybe is a good, good place to start.

Jen O’Ryan: Yeah. Well, I mean from a, from a very pragmatic perspective, a lot of it has to do with allocating resources. Because this has to be a sustained effort. And oftentimes it’s looked at like, okay, we’ll have a six week course on unconscious bias and we’ll get some handworks and then everything will be fine.

And that’s not . Yep. Done. We’re good. And the organisation will figure itself out. And that’s just not how we incorporate change. Especially, I mean, it. We don’t incorporate change like that as humans for a social media platform. When it changes something that we don’t like, we definitely don’t do it when it’s emotionally more connected to it.

So it’s having the right resources, but it’s also having that right, curiosity. So leaning into it saying, I don’t have all the answers, but I know that we need to explore this. And who are the experts we need to have in the room, and how do we really amplify voices? And honestly, being aware enough that they understand there are different ways of being.

And all the different experiences and how I, as an individual experience this conversation or a meeting or getting to work on, on public transportation is all gonna be very different. And so that, that to me is the biggest challenge is, is making sure that that, that c d o or that ERG leader has enough familiarity with people who are actually doing the work and people have the.

Attention of that leadership sponsor in a way that they can say, we need these obstacles removed. Let’s, let’s have a conversation about what that looks like.

Kerry Boys: Yeah. I think that’s really interesting and, and a big part of that, I guess, is helping the organisation, whoever we class as organisation, but senior leadership team, to really understand the why and to understand why it’s important. If we need that resource, as you mentioned, how do we make sure this is high enough on that priority list of things that we need to spend money on to make sure that actually. Money and time, of course, that it is prioritised. And without that it’s really hard to make, to make change.

Jen O’Ryan: And honestly, that’s one of the reasons why I wrote the work. Especially in 2020, all the things, a lot of the content that I had originally written came out. Because it, it felt like these were, I mean, it was, it was good content, but it, it felt more like we really need to be able to focus on some, some critical things, some very specific, critical things, and get people to the place where they feel equipped to have these conversations and to intervene and to know.

How to take care of themselves, right? And so that’s one of the reasons why I wrote the work is there are so many people who either don’t wanna work with a consultant, don’t have the resources, it’s them and another coworker who see this problem. And just need some resources and some guidance around how do, how do they even start to do this?

Phil Cross: And I don’t know if this, this kind of class of individual falls under the moniker of accidental DEI expert or whether you have some other way of thinking about thinking about these folk and, and thinking about their particular, their particular challenges in their particular role. But I’m thinking of the, the, the figureheads of organisations and the communicators.

So for instance, CEOs who, who. You know, expected in, in their role to, speak on this topic and to have opinions and to articulate to their people and the media and kind of broader stakeholders what happening here. And I’m wondering if there’s, if there’s any sort of difference in your thinking about those individuals.

Cuz it’s not quite the same as the, the sort of. Sometimes it is, and I’m not saying sometimes these individuals are absolutely, you know, really intrinsically motivated and really buy into the, you know, really buy into the, project and the mission of creating a more inclusive organisation.

But I think sometimes they are, they’re kind of thrust into this just by virtue of their position. So yeah. I’m just wondering what your thoughts are on that.

Jen O’Ryan: Yeah. Those are the, the execs can be sometimes my favorite people to work with because especially when you get them into small groups, they want, the ones that I’ve worked with for the most part want to know how to do the right thing to support their employees or even their families and their communities, right?

But, they don’t wanna make a mistake and they’re so hesitant because it feels like, why are we talking about this at work? I was like, we’re always talking about it. We’re just talking about it in different ways now. Right. And they, I mean, if I misspeak, I should say. When I misspeak, when I say something stupid, it’s not gonna show up on, you know, the New York Times, it’s going to make me, you know, whatever.

I, I’m under less pressure and there’s such scrutiny around it and they just, they really need space to, to practice and internalize. One of the, one of the biggest things that I worked on in, in 2016 and 2018 was really, how do you talk about gender in the workplace and gender identity because that was becoming really mainstream and a lot of people didn’t even know how to start.

So, yeah, I think that’s one of the benefits of executives now is they’re understanding that it empathy isn’t a weakness. And being curious and amplifying voices and saying that you don’t know what to do and looking for the right expert, is critical. And I think that’s one of the things that was kind of a turning point in 2020.

Kerry Boys: Yeah, definitely put a lot of, focus on mental health, wellbeing. All of those areas. And I think it’s really interesting when we think about, about leadership and that pressure, because what we still so often see is it being the being too much fear there to make change. So I’m actually, I’m better off saying nothing than I am to say something and risk saying the wrong thing.

And of course we know that longer term, that’s incredibly detrimental to businesses if we’re not calling out bad behavior, if we’re not raising, key issues. So how do we, what, how do we work with leaders and overcome that fear? How do we make those safe spaces? How do we, how do we start to think about that?

Jen O’Ryan: Honestly, one of the most effective voices from their peers. Because oftentimes they’ll hear it, excuse me. Oftentimes they’ll hear it from their employee resource groups, their affinity groups, their HR team, me, you, everybody. But it, it tends to land differently if it comes from up here. And that’s why I think it’s, it’s an opportunistic conversation.

That every time we have a chance to show how something could be different, it it’s almost like, it’s almost like a yes and like improv, that’s one of my favorite expressions to use, is yes, and yes, the message that you have is good, but if you just changed this word or if you used this image and these words in combination, it lands so much differently.

And, and kind of that, that mentality starts to really think they don’t feel like they have to defend themselves. They can be open, they can be curious and, and understand that it’s never gonna be done. This is an, an evolution.

Phil Cross: I love the improv kind of prompt there. I think that’s a really good way of, helping leaders think about how to, how they might support each other in improving and kind of constantly evolving and growing.

You can, we see organisations and I think even organisations where there perhaps isn’t, there aren’t high levels of trust in psychological safety currently. I think leaders could still see a path to a place where they could make a misstep publicly, internally, and there would be compassion for that and there would be a, an acknowledgement that you know, that everyone’s on a journey and that would be okay.

Is there any council you, you would give to leaders, again, thinking about more of that external communication? Twitter is less forgiving than the internals of an organisation, especially Twitter at the moment. And I think the fear is again, amplified as you said Jen, you know, if you misspeak, it’s not, it’s not likely to end up on the, on the cover of the times, but, you know, if, if Tim Cook misspeaks it, it, it absolutely will.

So, yeah. Is there, is there any kind of, any advice or any counsel you’d give?

Jen O’Ryan: Yeah, so one of the, one of the things I think we have most available to us is how we express for a lot of people, that’s language and the words that we use. And that can be just as powerful to use very specific words that are inclusive, that signal, rather than focusing on, oh, I don’t know if I should say this. I don’t know if I should say that. And, and that’s where it goes back to that it’s, it’s not a series of absolutes or always, or never. It’s making sure that you aren’t using terms that are ableist. Or terms that promote a gender binary or terms that, you know, are, are steeped in stereotypes and things like that.

And for the most part, as humans, we like to think that we don’t do that. But if you look back at the etymology of some of our phrases and, and some of our terms and the, the verbal shortcuts that we take, a lot of those really are exclusionary. Whether we intend them to be or not. And so that’s where I, that’s why I recommend they focus is be really precise on the words that you’re using.

And if somebody counsels you that, a term is ableist or a term is something that, is misconstrued or is offensive, just being really open to that and focusing on what words can you use. Because the other side of that is showing up on the on front page of the times because you are using an inclusive term in a way that nobody else expected, and now it’s an industry standard.

Kerry Boys: Any examples you could share with that to help her? You gonna ask the same question?

Phil Cross: I was gonna, I was gonna jump in with the exact same one. Yeah, no, super curious cuz I, I think leaders could bring to mind a couple of examples, you know, saying, ladies and gentlemen, for instance, when addressing a room full of people, you, there are obviously folk who, non-binary and don’t identify as a, as a lady or a gentleman who obviously that that excludes.

But are there any yet uncommon, examples that, that people, you said, you know, obviously people, unintentionally, you know, use this language. So yeah. Any any good examples.

Jen O’Ryan: Ladies and gentlemen? Is my all time favorite. It is because it’s, it’s ubiquitous, right? And we don’t, we don’t even think about it anymore.

And the pushback I get a lot with that is that it it to, to some people it can feel like a erasure. Like I can’t say ladies and gentlemen, it’s not that there aren’t ladies and gentlemen, it’s not, not that there aren’t men and women, it’s that there aren’t only. Ladies and gentlemen, and men and women. And so that’s kind of the focus that I put on there.

Really quick, I have a story. This, this has been one of the more effective examples I’ve had is, the social constructs that are underneath ladies and gentlemen, right? It has a tone, it has an implication about behaviors and traits and agency and things like that. And we can argue about that all day long.

I was talking to a colleague who disagreed with me on that saying, it’s just two words. And I said, okay, but what if it wasn’t ladies and gentlemen, what if it was ladies and dandies? And all of a sudden it was like, oh no, I’m not a dandy, I’m a, I’m a gentleman, I’m a man. And it was like, okay, well this, that feels different, right?

It’s just the same word, but it feels different. And I hope that wasn’t too much of a tangent, but I do have a really, this, this literally just happened to me last week when I was traveling on holiday. My family and I were going to a show and we were approaching the box office and they stamp for admission, right?

And the stamp wielder was very enthusiastically announcing, wrists, hands or forehead.

And I just, I couldn’t help myself. I was just like, that is phenomenal because it’s freezing cold. I mean, first of all, not everybody has hands. Not everybody has wrists. Not everybody has skin that they really feel like they want to expose. It’s also 30 degrees outside. Maybe I don’t wanna take my gloves off.

All these different things. And they didn’t even address all the reasons why somebody wouldn’t want to put their hand out. They just said, We need to make a mark on you somewhere that’s visible to so show this other person that you’ve paid your admission and that focus, that precise focus on what the objective was.

Brings everybody in. They have options now. They don’t feel singled out, and so it’s small shifts like that that that really can signal to people, I see you, I value you’re human.

Kerry Boys: I love those examples and we absolutely love stories on the podcast, so please don’t feel bad about those and keep them coming.

Phil Cross: Tangent away.

Kerry Boys: And I think, yeah, always a tangent. We are, we are tangent experts.

Phil Cross: Oh, I’ve got, just a, just to kind of build on that and, and I think the analogy we used to sometimes use when talking about inclusive language and hear the same pushback, guys is a, guys is typical one, you know, using, using guys to address a, you know, a room full of people and the kind of the counter example to that is, is similar to the example you used around Dandy, you know, how would you feel if, if, if we dress the room as, as gals, you know, would that land differently and of course it would. And funnily enough the most vocal pushback we get against guys tends to be from women in the room who like, well, I don’t, I don’t mind that. That’s, that’s absolutely fine. I don’t mind being lumped in and, and called guys, but pointing out that, well, there, there are people who do mind in fact, and the, I guess the mental math we ask people to kind of engage with as a thought experiment is. Weighing the potential harm against, people in the room who it does cause offense to versus how attached are you to actually saying the word, you know, is it a hill you wanna die on in, in terms of keeping that in your lexicon or is it a very easy shift for you to switch to hey all, hey folk, or whatever , a more inclusive alternative will be.

And, and most people when they kind of wrestle with that idea a little bit, tend to come out on the other side with, okay, well, you know, that, that, that seems, that seems actually pretty reasonable because, and, you know, no kind of criticism or, attached to this, just haven’t really considered the potential impact before because it’s not in their, you know, it’s not in their lived experience hey.

Kerry Boys: Although I will say it’s not always, we say it’s easy to change, it’s often not. No, because it’s a habit. So one of the things we find people can get quite fresh. So guys, obviously it’s such a common one, but sometimes people can get really angry at themselves cuz they’re trying so hard to change guys and then they slip up.

And what we always say is, it’s a journey, it’s fine to make mistakes. Actually the most powerful thing you can do is accidentally say, guys, and then apologise and call yourself out for it. Because that is showing not only that the word is wrong, but the humility and the reason behind making change. So I think yeah, just anyone listening, taking the pressure off a bit about always having this perfect is, is really important.

Jen O’Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. And that’s the thing is we have such a phenomenal capacity for expression and, and, and words and language, and yet we tend to try to economise, so we will use the same words over because our, our goal is to get the, the message out. And the word’s just kind of like a, a delivery system for it.

But if you take a step back, well see. And even that take a step back. If you pull the lens back a little bit, it’s the other side of showing up authentically is seeing people, viewing people and experiencing people for who they are. And if we’re leading with, Hey guys, good morning guys. We’re not seeing or engaging the people who are there.

It’s, so, it makes us think about who are we talking to, colleagues, folks, peeps. Peeps is my favorite. Not super professional, but it is my favorite.

Phil Cross: I’m a fan of peeps. I might start, folding that into my lexicon a bit more. I enjoy that a lot. And I think one of the things, of course the focus here is on the folk and the peeps that, that this potentially impacts and, offends.

But I think one of the, overlooked benefits for individuals stepping into embracing say, and we’re just obviously talking about inclusive language here is the flexing of cognitive flexibility and the developing of that muscle. I catch myself all the time, gendering animals and gendering, like things, cause I’ve got a two and a half year old little fella at home, and I’m telling him stories and we’re pointing at things in the world.

And I’m like, you know, what’s he doing when I’m pointing at the hippo or the, or the tiger or whatnot. And I’m like, why did. Why did he pop into my head? Like, why did I, you know, why did I make that gender connection between that type of animal and a particular gender.

And, and it’s really interesting to see that. And that’s a, that’s a glimpse into my own unconscious bias that’s popping up. And I think. And to, and to me that’s really interesting and exciting and I, I think, I think kind of framing that as an opportunity for people to gain a bit more I guess awareness and flexibility is another sort of, mildly selfish fringe benefit of doing this work.

I dunno how you think about that, Jen.

Jen O’Ryan: No, I love that because that is such a perfect example and it is, it, it can, it can also be overwhelming at times, I would imagine. If you’re going through there and you’re like, oh, did I say this word? And then trying to put it all together. But, no. It is such a tendency and it’s ingrained from the time that we’re little.

I mean, it was not that long ago that the standard, the more correct was to say he, unless you absolutely had to use, not he. And it just, yeah, it’s really interesting all the places we put gender, that it doesn’t belong.

Phil Cross: Even the one that comes to mind is the kind of the most egregious, and I still catch myself doing it, is when we’re crossing the road and, you know, the green man, well, calling it the green man is like, so there’s a man that’s telling me to stop and go when I, when I crossed the road.

So it’s a green man, right? And like I grew up at school cause I think I grew up at school and it was always the green man when we crossed the road. Sort of reframing that to the green person. It seems like a small thing, but we know it’s not. Right.

Jen O’Ryan: That’s the thing is, and, and in that case it is a small thing, but once you flip the script on that, you start seeing the bigger things.

You start seeing the more systemic, institutionalised, bigger problems. And that’s, it’s funny because I do have people, I’m like, why are you asking me to focus on this simple thing. It’s like, because the simple things lead you to see, oh, it’s everywhere. And you start to, you can’t, you can’t unsee it, for lack of a better word.

Phil Cross: And we, we ask people to, we use sort of habit forming techniques quite a lot in the work we do and, and kind of if you. Obviously I’m, I’m sure you’re familiar to some extent, Jen, with the work of, you know, BJ Fogg, et cetera, and the research that’s been done on habit formation and so much of the success of that is focusing on the small changes that can be made over time.

And if we ask people to do the huge things right out the gate, they’re probably gonna fall down at that and become disheartened and disenfranchised and disengaged, whereas, Just spotting, you know, green Man and trying to re reframe that. Just noticing, you know, the stories you tell to your kids about the Animals in the picture work, is something that I think a lot of people can engage with.

And it, and it opens up the possibility for broader work, as you say. So, yeah, I think that’s really important. I realise I’ve taken us down a tangent of inclusive language and children’s picture books.

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I’m curious, what are the, what are other, some of the other big challenges that we see accidental DEI experts kind of stepping into in organisations? What are some of the, you know, if there are any kind of broad categories or really specific things that you see popping up time and time again that might be interesting for the listener?

Jen O’Ryan: Yeah, I think one of the biggest ones is balancing, change, fatigue. And, saturation and, and really understanding as you are introducing new initiatives, in your organisation, even if it’s something as small, small does not mean not meaningful. Even something as small as adding, you know, your pronouns, for example, to an auto signature, is making sure that it’s rolled out in such a way that people are able to absorb that change and, and integrate it and go through that, that cycle, right, and, and not introducing too much, too fast. The other side of that is not going so slow that it, it just becomes lip service, right? And so making sure that there is, that, that balance and that that constantly keeping plugged into the pulse of how people are reacting, what is actually happening, what’s, what’s the feedback.

Kerry Boys: I think that’s such an important point. And I think the layer on top of that is, Doing it within the organisational context. So quite often what we see when we have accidental DEI experts is they’re often not necessarily familiar with everything else that’s going on in the organisation, and they’re trying so hard to really fight for something and to make lots of change, but without considering that there might be 20 other initiatives from other angles that are all being pushed on people. So the change fatigue isn’t just within the DEI space, it’s actually across the whole organisation. And we are seeing that with a lot of organisations at the moment. They’re almost pushing messages onto people without taking the employee experience lens, what am I seeing as an employee? What are all of these different changes that you’re asking me to take? So I think for, especially for accidental DEI experts, that’s very hard to to get a handle on unless you’ve got that really good exec sponsor or you are at a more senior level with more visibility.

Jen O’Ryan: Yeah. And that’s such an excellent point because some initiatives I’ve seen rollout, they are so well thought out and well funded and well executed, and it’s that last piece of who communicates it out to the employees and what does that message feel like. Because if you’ve got all of this, all of this good stuff coming and then it comes out through a specific point person that will, not necessarily intentional, but will influence how that message is received. It, it really is. It, it, it’s, it’s that end-to-end design thinking of understanding the lived experience, the problem being solved. Does the population we’re supporting think that it’s a problem? Are they involved in the solution? And, and what does that look like? All the way through to that, to that end, recipient.

Kerry Boys: We’ve actually seen that recently. There’s an organisation that we’ve been helping with there, they call them ERGs, Employee Resource Groups, and they’d found that their employee resource groups just weren’t particularly effective. And there’s a whole load of reasons behind that. But one of the things that we’ve been doing is helping those groups understand how to make effective change and how you go about doing that.

And one of the things the employee resource group said back to us in the organisation was, yes, we wanna learn this, but also we want some credit. We want some recognition. Like we want this acknowledged that we are, that we are making this change and that we’re going above and beyond our roles. And I’d love to hear more about that from you in a sec.

But what was really interesting to me was the number one thing that made a difference was their Chief People Officer that they don’t normally get exposure to. Sending them an all an email saying, this is awesome, I’m so proud of you all. Thank you so much for giving the time to go through this program.

So to your point around where the communications come from, something that was seemingly small and simple actually was so meaningful. So that was a little story, but I’d love to dig into that a bit more.

When it, when these accidental DEI experts are people that are going above and beyond their role. And, and it’s their coming out of their own personal time. In some instances, how should we be recognising and rewarding them? What should that look like? Because I know some companies actually pay, I hadn’t realised that until relatively recently some of the big tech companies actually give additional funds to people, not to spend internally additional salary to individuals.

What, what other ways are, should we be thinking about how we recognise and reward those individuals?

Jen O’Ryan: That’s such a good point too, because there’s a burnout factor as well, right? You can’t just keep pushing, pushing, pushing. Stress should be cyclical. Honestly, it really, depends on, the individual and the team structure and the company, everybody responds a little bit differently and what I’ve seen though is really investing back into that person.

Whether that sounds like it’s additional PTO, whether that sounds like sending him to a conference, especially something related to DEI, something that really helps them align what they’re doing to make the organisation better and their professional development and their personal development. And really being plugged into what it is that that motivates them and where do they wanna go.

Kerry Boys: And I think that point there about goals is, one of the things we’ve been trying with a few organisations is if we really believe in the importance of this, and we believe in the employee resource groups for use of a better term, if we believe in their ability to make change and how important this is to our culture, then it should be part of their.

and then that builds it into the existing reward and recognition system. So we’ve been, yeah, we’ve been having that conversation with quite a few organisations recently about how you make that happen.

Jen O’Ryan: Yeah. And one other thing I’ve seen, especially with employee resource groups, is sponsoring that more of a cross pollination.

So sponsor a leadership retreat for them. Let let them go out into some remote area and really get deep into the strategy of what do they wanna do to affect change and, and who they are as humans, and that that can just accelerate their progress. Exponentially. And especially if you can get, like I said, leaders from other groups and ERGs and get an understanding of how can they work together and what are their shared problems.

Cuz we’re not, and we treat, we’re not ever one thing.

Kerry Boys: And again, I love that. One of the big things that came out of our ERG program with this organisation I’m referring to that we just ran was. All of them were looking at all the policies across the organisation separately, and all of them were communicating to the organisation about the need for new members separately.

And actually we got ’em together and they formed cross-functional working groups from each ERG on these problems. Beautiful. Right. Suddenly completely changed how they communicate with the organisation and the, and the experience that all of the other people in that organisation would have of them and their effectiveness.

So I love to that point. Yeah.

Jen O’Ryan: Yeah. And, and the new perspectives that they bring. .I mean that is the beauty of having these diverse perspectives in the same room is just the learning.

Phil Cross: I have a question, Jen, and I’m not sure if this is directly related to, accidental DEI experts or just more, you know certain, kind of types of organisation.

But I’m wondering how you think about I’ll call it complacency. So, kind of organisational wide complacency around around DEI and we tend to see this in organisations that are, typically more, more kind of purpose led in general. And, and we see in organisations that there’s a lot of good heart and good intention there, but, but with it comes a, I guess from, from lack of knowledge, lack of experience, and lack of engagement with the topic. A kind of, well, you know, I’m, I’m not racist or sexist or prejudice, like I don’t need this. And, and there’s a, there’s a kind of lack of recognition that there’s, there’s work for us all to do. And the, the end result is obviously, The where there’s a, you know, whether there’s a learning and development opportunity or a program.

The optimal is that it’s compelling, not compulsory, and that people would volunteer to come along. But in organisations where there is this systemic complacency, kind of attendance at any intervention can be difficult to achieve. So I’m wondering your experience, your views on that.

I’d love to get somebody else’s perspective there.

Jen O’Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. So I do like to approach this as a combination of that, that need for innovation. Within any organisation. And then also the aspect of organisational health. And so if we typically think of DEI as this silo that lives underneath human resources, because that’s where humans happen, we really need to branch it out.

And for companies that aren’t investing in research and development, if they aren’t investing in innovation and, and what the industry, the next disruption will be, they’re going to stagnate. And it’s the same with their humans. So if you aren’t, if you aren’t learning about how you can make it more inclusive, representative, belonging, that organisational health will start to stagnate.

And for some companies in the industry, that’s fine. They’re okay with it. But they’re not gonna be able to attract that amazing talent that is coming up in the world. And it will show. And I mean the, the more that you invest in inclusion and belonging and a culture of respect, it’s measurable on every single metric.

The, the engagement, the productivity, the optimal solutions. It, it just elevates everything.

Phil Cross: Just to sort of double click on that a bit more, Jen, how does that translate down to say, you know, the individual, the individual kind of line manager, at a, you know, a function in the business? And I might, I might kind of get that on a cognitive level and I might get that this is important for the business and this is important for the industry and even agree that a focus on DEI is a good thing.

But I, I just don’t need this. Like, I’m, you know, I’m open and I treat everyone the same, you know, which is always a, bit of a misnomer that we can expand on if needs be. But, I’m just wondering if there’s a way of thinking about engaging with that person.

Is it the if this is an organisation-wide issue, that you would recommend that some kind of intervention is more compulsory, or do you think that the downsides of that are, outweigh the positive benefits.

And again, there’s no, there’s no easy or clean answer to this I get, I just, you know, after your, after your view.

Jen O’Ryan: Yeah. No, it’s, those are the individuals who think that this isn’t for them, those are the ones I want at the table. Those are absolutely, and honestly, it’s because oftentimes they think that, well, no one wants to sit in a, in a conference room for an hour and be told everything that they’ve done is wrong.

And all their world beliefs are wrong. And all the, the ways they interact are wrong. And I mean, I’m not here to change anybody’s belief system. This is just about how do we interact with each other as humans effectively. And safely. Right? And so that typically is how I position it. It’s like if you don’t feel like you need to be here, I would, I would invite you to come for 15 minutes and see if you still feel the same way, because it’s not,.

And also not, tangent also, I think that has a lot to do with the type of content and the way that they approach and the way they talk about inclusion in the workplace. Because if it sounds like it’s gonna be a anti-harassment off the shelf video from 1982, That’s one thing, right? If it’s something that is dynamic and engaging and really focuses on, we need these different perspectives, including people who don’t agree with me.

Like, I want people who don’t agree with me, because that’s where we get this really nice, healthy tension and conflict and discussion. And that’s what drives the optimal, you know, the optimal results. As long as it’s safe, psychologically safe, and there’s, you know, an understanding.

Kerry Boys: Should we touch on psychological safety and safe spaces?

Phil, it’s an interesting topic that we’ve been discussing quite a lot since a podcast, one of Brene Brown’s recent podcasts about brave spaces, and I know it’s something you are very passionate about. So I thought I might pass to you, Phil, to start a conversation and get Jen’s thoughts on that one.

Phil Cross: And I tend to agree with Brene Brown’s thinking on this that you can’t guarantee safety in a space. You know, you’ve got a, you’ve got a bunch of humans in a space that are gonna do what they’re gonna do. They’re gonna think of you, what they’re gonna think, and they’re gonna act as, they’re gonna act outside of the, outside of the space, and dealing with sometimes subject matter that is, by its nature is emotive and can be challenging for people and can rouse emotions in, you know, in the person sharing and then also the people listening. And so, talking about safe spaces can, I think create a kind of false dichotomy.

And it’s also, it’s also a, i, I think a mechanism to potentially break trust and kind of break, faith early on. Because, I think if anybody really feels into it, there’s an experience of, of, of not safety I think with, with speaking up, so the fact that this has been framed as a safe space and, and all of a sudden people do not feel that, I think is something that could lead to a greater degree of shutting down and a lack of contribution than, than naturally opening up.

What I, and another , just to add another, kind of like controversial frame on that. You know I don’t like the framing of this is a judgment free environment either because judgment is a natural mechanism of, of how humans make sense of the world. We’re all judging all of the time.

We can we can flip that framing to, we would like an environment free of criticism, free of blaming, free of shaming and, and, and free of certain behaviors. But, but to say, We can’t judge is, well, a, it’s judging the judges . So, saying we want a judgment free environment is a judgment in and of itself, which I think some people miss, but, but yeah, this, this sort of saying we want judgment free.

This is a safe space. The Brene Brown’s kind of posit there is that we want brave spaces. We want to create a space where there’s, kind of a celebration and an expectation of of people speaking up in, in the face of, potential, discomfort. So that, was a little all over the map.

But, love to, love to hear what you make of that.

Jen O’Ryan: No, I love that because it is, safe spaces does have that sense of, you know, it’s, I I don’t wanna say that it’s a, you know, it’s a softly lit room that’s lemon scented where we sit around and talk about our feelings. That is fantastic and we need that.

But what I’m talking about here, and what I think you’re also alluding to, Phil, is that we need to have a space that is trusted. So I can show up as my authentic self. I can vehemently disagree with your position, or we can start to, you know, pick apart each other’s arguments. But there’s a ground rule and there’s an understanding of what the expected behavior is, and it’s gonna be respectful, and it’s going to make sure that everybody who’s in that conversation and that team gonna leave intact.

That to me is the difference. It’s behaviors that I would describe rather than, like, we can all talk about what psychological safety means, and that is very important, but I think it’s, it lands better when it’s describing the behaviors and modeling those behaviors. So if you’re challenging me and I’m listening, rather than digging my heels and defending why I said that.

Phil Cross: I couldn’t agree more. I think we’re on the same page. Cuz, it feels like a safe space and judgment free feels like an incantation that somebody’s saying at the start of a workshop, like it’s a spell. They just cast to make it true. And assuming everybody knows what we mean by that, again, and without pointing to very specific behaviors and expectations. I don’t think we’re gonna get there, so yeah, love it.

Kerry Boys: Yeah, I just, I think, I love brave because it’s giving someone something empowering. It’s something actionable. It’s something you can do. It’s the expectation on you is to go in there and, and to be, to be brave and challenge yourself.

I, I don’t personally think though that safe spaces are wrong. I think that is still what we’re ultimately aiming for. We ideally want to be in a situation where people are feeling safe enough to have their voices heard and all of those things, but I think naming it a safe space isn’t necessarily helpful, and I completely agree that we of course can’t, can’t guarantee it.

Jen O’Ryan: Yeah. I mean, the other thing, safe spaces actually has a meaning, right? I mean, when I was doing, a lot of work with educators, safe spaces and schools and safe spaces, and, you know, in, in healthcare facilities, things like that where a place that marginalised, typically LGBTQI+ individuals could go, and be safe and not persecuted and not bullied, and, it was a place for them to go. And so that absolutely has a very specific meaning. But yes, no, I think in terms of working together in organisations, it’s a place where yes, you can be brave and you can name what’s going on.

And I think there’s also a component now that we’ve seen in the last couple years where it’s safe to not be okay. It’s safe to show up and say, I am barely holding it together because I’ve got something going on that is bigger than I wanna talk about right now. And just so please, a little grace. Text me if you need my immediate attention, but just know that I am working through some things.

Kerry Boys: I guess what I’m keep being drawn to is the power of our accidental DEI experts. So time and time again in organisations, people that haven’t got huge levels of experience, aren’t trained, don’t always have the power and resources. That determination and passion, and then the ability for them to make change is so strong.

So I think if you are in that role, Amazing, well done. And, yeah , keep going with it. Hopefully there’s some things that we’ve shared today that can help you on that journey.

Phil Cross: I, I think for me, one, one thing that just sparked from the conversation around reward and remuneration and recognition for accidental DEI experts is where it’s where there’s not kind of financial remuneration for the additional time they’re spending. How do we, add a degree of process and system around ensuring that there is a continuing recognition and the continuing acknowledgement over time? Because if not, I think it relies on the sort of the remembrance and the serendipity and the prompting of certain people in the organisation.

And, it can feel, the experience of it could feel very sporadic and there could be long intervals between drinks, for folks. So I think, for organisations where there isn’t a financial remuneration, how could they introduce a process to make sure that these folk, are given their dues and given their acknowledgement on a regular basis?

That’s, that’s something that I’m gonna, I’m gonna think about for our, yeah. For the organisations we work with.

Kerry Boys: Jen last but not least.

Jen O’Ryan: Oh, no. So I was actually just thinking about the, this, we’ve been talking about the power of expression in words and just the, even the last conversation where we were talking about the difference between a safe space, psychologically safe space and a brave space, and just that, yes, and just that shift of safe to brave.

It really feels different and it’s, you know what I mean? So I think that is a lot of the power, that we have, to, with language to express. But one of the things that I’m really taking away from this is the individual should never underestimate their ability to influence change. If it’s a word, if it’s something in a grocery store, if it’s in community or with your kids or someone else’s kids, that ability to just kind of splash and ripple a spark of a conversation.

Phil Cross: Love it. Kerry, anything else?

Kerry Boys: Any final thoughts for the audience? Anything you want them to take away beyond what we’ve discussed?

Jen O’Ryan: Be, be brave, be precise with your words, and be brave and, and, and mindful of all the different ways of being.

Kerry Boys: I love it. Thank you so much for joining us. That was a wonderful conversation.

I think we’ve all got lots to, to think about as a result.

Jen O’Ryan: Thank you so much for having me.

Phil Cross: Thanks, Jen.

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